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Need load Data for 452AA powder


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#1 TJD

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 08:36 PM

I have inherited a supply (four pounds) of Winchester powder # 452AA. In an old Winchester loading booklet I have found some loading date for 38 Special. Can any one add any more infomation for other calibers? Thanks

#2 glenn asher

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 05:51 AM

Back when I shot a lot of IPSC, some of our local guys liked it for the .45 ACP, using cast lead 200 SWC bullets. IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, and that's NO guarantee, they used something like 4.6-5.0 grains for about 875 fps in a 5.5" compensated 1911.
Some guys swore by the stuff, I favored 231 or AA#2, as it was easier to find on a regular basis. Here in town, we've had irregular availability of Winchester powder, even then. I DID try 452AA, but didn't like it in my pistols.

The 452AA "craze" was started by a column in The American Handgunner magazine, back when Dan Cotterman was editing that column. He'd got a letter from a German guy who used 452 in all his pistols with good results, and it started a run on that powder here. (Germans can only keep X amount of gunpowder on hand, so the guy was doing all he could with what he could get). Cotterman and I were corresponding quite a bit in those days, so I heard quite a bit about it. He introduced me to Terry Murbach, a gunwriter for Petersen's Handguns, and we visit back and forth, to this day. Terry quit that business and went to work for Black Hills, and then, Cor-Bon, until he retired a couple of years ago.
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#3 TJD

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 04:32 PM

Thank you Glen.
I wil give it a try.
A Winchester loading booklet from 1992 tells that 452AA was out of production then.
One of my kids shoots a 9mm. My three girls shoot 9x18 Mak. I might try it in them. If I can figure where to start.

#4 glenn asher

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 03:59 AM

Look for Hodgdon's Trap 100 data, it should be the same as 452AA powder. If you can find data for that old powder, you should be sitting pretty. As always, start real low and work into it. The older Speer manuals often had data for Trap 100.

It's been out of production for quite awhile.
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#5 TJD

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 10:28 AM

Thanks !!!!

This will help. It is a place to start.

#6 WTFC

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 10:37 AM

TJD,
I have some of the older Winchester books at home. I'll try to remember to check it out when I get home. I also have the older Speer, Hornady, Lyman and Sierra reloading manuals which might have the info.
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#7 TwoShot

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 08:27 PM

I shot many a pound of 452 AA back in the old days of IPSC when the Cadillac gun was a single stack Colt 1911 with a compensated barrel. My gun was custom with a 5 1/2 inch barrel so the velocity may be off a bit for you. I kept these records because I was reloading for the 1990 USPSA Nationals at the time and did a lot of testing.

205 gr. actual weight H&G 68 semi wadcutter
OAL 1.260
TC .469
WW 452 AA 5.4 gr. - ave 887 fps
WW 452 AA 5.3 gr. - Ave 870 fps
85 degree outside temperature

452 is an interesting powder as is is temperature sensitive in reverse. Let your ammo reach outside temp on a hot 90 degree day and the velocity will be lower than on a 60 degree day. I hope this helps you.

This reply is a copy of one of my earlier posts to this same basic question.

#8 TJD

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 01:30 AM

Thank you.

I shoot an old single stack 45. The old barral looks like a piece of sewer pipe on the inside but it prints great groups with my 200gr cast SWC (RCBS). I will try feeding it some of this powder.

Thanks to all who have helped with this question.

#9 WTFC

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 04:35 AM

I checked my reloading manuals last night & found only a limited amount of information. This is a quote from the Lyman 47th edition reloading manual found under the powder listings for Winchester Ball Powders..."WST: Winchester Super Target is a shotshell powder by design and generally replaces the now discontinued 452AA. It is used by many handgun target shooters. " After reading that, I checked the Lyman reloading data section. There was no data for 9mm, 38 special or .357 Magnum. I did find one listing for the .45 ACP. That was for the cast 200 gr. SWC which listed WST / 4.8 gr / 825 FPS starting to 5.6 gr / 933 FPS MAXIMUM.

The 1975 Winchester loading guide lists 452AA as a shotshell powder, but does not list any handgun loads using 452AA.

The 1994 Winchester loading guide does not list 452AA, but does list WST. This quote from the guide, "WST is an excellent choice in standard velocity handgun loads such as 38 Special and 45 ACP due to its low charge weight, clean burning and low muzzle flash." I checked the handgun data and found this for 38 Special: 148 gr. Lead Bevel Base WC / WST / 2.5 gr / 665 fps starting to 2.7 gr / 700 fps MAXIMUM. Also 158 gr. Lead SWC / WST / 3.3 gr / 705 fps starting to 3.7 gr / 770 fps MAXIMUM. No data for 9mm or .357 Magnum using WST. For the .45 ACP there are several loads listed. This is for the 200 gr. Lead bullet / WST / 4.4 gr / 830 fps starting to 5.1 gr. / 910 fps MAXIMUM.

The 2003 Winchester loading guide has this for 38 Special: 148 gr. Lead Bevel Base WC / WST / 2.5 gr / 665 fps starting to 2.7 gr / 700 fps MAXIMUM. Also 158 gr. Lead SWC / WST / 3.3 gr / 705 fps starting to 3.7 gr / 770 fps MAXIMUM. Nothing for 9 mm Luger. For the .45 ACP there are several loads listed. This is for the 200 gr. Lead bullet / WST / 4.4 gr / 830 fps starting to 5.1 gr. / 910 fps MAXIMUM.

The 2006 Winchester loading guide does not list data for the 9mm, 38 special, .357 Magnum or .45 ACP using WST.

I also checked various editions of Speer, Sierra and Hornady reloading manuals and found nothing listed.

Regards,
Wayne smile.gif
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#10 TJD

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:35 AM

Wayne,

Thank you for your help. This will give me a place to start.

Four pounds of the stuff aught to keep me expermenting for a while.

I wish to say thanks to all the kind helpful people who meet on this site. I hope you all have a great time of "Summer Hunten"

TJD

#11 Glen

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:44 AM

QUOTE
I hope you all have a great time of "Summer Hunten"


Right back atcha TJD!! biggrin.gif


BTW-- Don't forget to take the camera out with you. wink.gif biggrin.gif

RIP Russ,Blaine & Darrell!!

Glen

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