Anybody own/shoot both? Which .221 rifle would be "better": CZ American or Remington LVSF?

Looking to start a fight??? I've owned a couple Hornets, they are fun, and in the right rifle, shoot pretty well. I have a Fireball currently, a CZ, and it's probably my favorite rifle. It gives more than the Hornet can, and also shoots pretty well. It uses more powder to do that, just like a .22/250 uses more powder to best a .223.

I love my little CZ Fireball, and I like it better than the Remington rifle, but I can live with the magazine, some folks don't like them. Remingtons sometimes have feeding issues with the Fireball, the action isn't really designed for the short little Fireball cartridge. so the magazine has to be blocked, the bolt stop has to be altered, and the ejector is moved to a slightly different location on the bolt head. The CZ has a straightline feed system, with a Mauser-styled extractor, so it doesn't have those issues, usually they work perfectly.

Of course, CZ and others make Hornets, too, so they all have about the same accuracy potential, in the same make rifle. (good bedding, good barrels=good accuracy) The Fireball can handle heavier bullets better, but with that small a case, you usually use lighter weight bullets anyway, so that's mostly a wash. I like the Fireball better, others like the Hornet, which has a lot better variety of brass available, a big PLUS. Take your pick and pay your money, you should be happy either way. I went Fireball and am very happy.

The other CZ is a .204 Ruger, also a lot of fun.

DAMMIT GLENN! yer just gonna hafta stop trash talking the 22Hornet!!!


I can't compare the two, I only have the Hornet. I like it, it's accurate, sips powder, etc. It's awfull fun to shoot.

However, I think the 221 is probably a better choice all around. Rimless case, more fps, longer brass life, perhaps a little less fiddly to load for, 50 grain bullet capability. The only downside being that the brass is not as cheap and not as widely available. If I were doing it over, I'd probably choose the 221 (CZ), not that I have plans of ever getting rid of the Hornet.

I thought I was being painfully fair about it all, considering the Hornet is old, obsolete and archaic in the extreme.

Yeah. The Hornet is o-l-d. Not like that middle aged like the 46 year old .221 Fireball.

I owned an XP-100 .221 FB and I own a Hornet. Both are good. I shoot the Hornet for all the reasons Red gave. Accuracy wise, I'd put the CZ Hornet up to the .221 FB. I have other .224 CF's that won't shoot with my CZ Hornet.

Which brings up my caveat: The ONLY Hornet I'd own is a CZ. I've owned the others. There is no comparison.~AMMOe

LOL.

I have a Ruger 77/22 Hornet and a Rem 700 LVSF in 221 Fireball. Both shoot great. Never did a thing to the Ruger, it's stock, and only had the trigger lightened on the LVSF.

If I could only have one, I think I'd have to go with the Fireball. It's more accurate, shoots flatter, larger variety of bullets to use and more power than the Hornet. But I'm glad I don't have to pick just one. My Rugers serial # is under 1000.

CZ or Remington? I don't think you'll go wrong with either.

I have they both and they both are great cartridges. My 22 Hornet is accually a 22-K Hornet and gains about a 100 fps and is in a Browning Micro Hunter. The 221 is in a Rem BDL that was a 17 Remington a few years back that refused to get it's act together and shoot good. I use both of mine for ground squirrels in Montana love them both.

When I bought my Hornet, a CZ, I had every intension of reaming it to a "K" chamber. But it shoots sooooo good as it is, I don't want to mess with a great thing. The extra 100 feet per second and longer brass life would be nice though.

You know? I shoot Lil Gun and a 33-35 grain bullet and I wear my brass out before it gives way. It just gets so work hardened that it won't hold a bullet anymore! Longer case life can be easily had in the Hornet by loading Lil Gun. My 34 grainers are cruising at 3050 fps and dogs really hate them! Nailed a few out at the 170 to 200 marks the other day from the window of my Jeep.(aka "the 5000 pound bench rest") Wonderful.

Spring will soon be here and with spring, the idiot pups. I may load some of the Speer 33 grain TNT blems I picked up last year as much of the shooting is pretty close. I'm geyting psyched to loose the Hornet in the summer sun! ~AMMOe

I have both. I've been shooting a hornet for over 30 years........no complaints. The fireball is real nice too. I consider the fireball to be a hornet on steroids..... They both will get the job done on varmints at reasonable distances.

The Remington web sit shows their 22 Hornet load is a 35 Gr Accu Tip bullet with a MV of 3,100 ft/sec. Sited in at 100 Yds the 35 Gr bullet is 25.5 inches low at 300 Yds with a ft/lb of energy of 99 ft/lbs.. The load for the 221 Fireball is a 50 Gr Accu Tip bullet with a MV of 2,995 ft/sec. With the Fireball sited in at 100 Yds the 50 Gr bullet is 12.1 inches low at 300 Yds with a ft/lb energy at 300 Yds of 408 ft/lb. The Gr of water capacity of the 22 Hornet is 13.27 Grs. The 221 Fireball water case capacity is 21.34 Grs.. The Hornet case is long tapered thin case that head spaces on the rim . The Fireball is a moderen case with long case life when compared to the Hornet. The K Hornet was developed to overcome some of the problems common with the parent Hornet case. I have a Kimber Mdl 82 22 Hornet and a Remington 700 LS 221 Fireball. I did give the Remington rifle a tune up to get it to shoot under one inch five shot 100 Yds groups. The tune up included glass bedding the action with 1 1/2 inches of the barrel, free floating the rest of the barrrel , adjusting the trigger pull down to 2 3/4 lbs. and had the bolt locking lugs lapped .. Since getting the 221 Fireball that darn Hornet stays at home...For me the Hornet could be long time dead. I started reloading ammo back in 1953 and since have reloaded some 20 different rounds. No one can get me to like the Hornet....

I have all 3. .221 fireball, 22 hornet, 22K hornet. They all shoot well. The benfit of the .221 is a bit more velocity and a modern rimless case. The benefit of the hornet is it's a tad quieter and cheaper to reload. .221 brass is expensive and sometimes hard to find. JMO

As far as the rifles go I would go with the CZ if you are not going to customize it, they are damn accurate.
If I was going to customize it I would go with the Remington. JMO, I don't want to start a PC! AL

Didn't mean to start a skirmish, fellas.
Just a couple more questions: 1. How much louder is the report from the Fireball than a Hornet? 2. What about CZ scope rings? I see CZ, L-pold, Warne, and Millett make them. Millett makes the only ones in "low" that I can find; would they be too low for a 40mm dia. Buckmaster SF, and is there a reason there aren't many made in low?
Thanks a lot for everyone's input!

1. Not much louder than the Hornet, the Fireball is still loud, but so are all centerfires. The differences are minor between the two.
2. CZ rings are your most economical bet, they come standard with the CZ American models, so there's no extra outlay. I'm the "anti-Millett" I don't like ANYTHING they make, or have ever made. I had bad experiences with their Series 100 Pistol sights and won't own anything of theirs. The other brands of rings are fine, but there IS an issue with most all CZs, it's the bolt handle, that makes scoping a problem with really low rings.
3. I have a Simmons 44 Magnum scope on my Fireball, it fits fine, even with the 44mm Objective, so the Nikon should fit okay. I'm using the factory rings. If you use rings that sit lower, sometimes the rear bell (ocular) will be hit by the bolt handle, this happens with those scopes with a BIG ocular lens assembly, though not with "normal sized" rear assemblies. Look at my picture I posted above, both scopes work okay with the factory rings, but I sure wouldn't go lower, that Simmons is pushing it pretty close with bolt handle issues. I can't, for example, work the bolt if the lens caps are on the scope, I have to take them off to shoot or remove the bolt for cleaning.
I think that bolt handle would be a real issue with some Bushnell scopes, for example, but the Nikon should be okay.

Those are CZ 527 issues, and will happen with either Hornet or Fireball, or .204, or .223, or whatever.

Me and Red were just poking fun at each other's choices, we didn't mean for you to take us seriously. I respect Red's choice, even though it's wrong.

yeah no skirmish here.


I have a couple CZ 527's. I'm still using the factory CZ rings that came with both. Some folks don't like the looks of their rings, but they're sturdy (and free). I've got a Weaver V-16 on one, a Sightron 3-12 on the other, no problems with clearance.

Thanks for the ballistics lesson.
I have shot to 300 with the Hornet on very still evenings. It is marginal and wind drifty at that range but I have killed prairiedogs at that distance. Usually I shoot .222 - .223 when I want horsepower at that range.

Maybe you need a better Hornet? If you dislike the Kimber you might want to look into a CZ. You quoted Remington's V-Max data but what of your own?? What loads are you shooting that you were so dissatisfied with? Maybe we can help??? ~AMMOe

I

The Hornets with a higher BC bullet, case full of lil gun and a SPP do pretty well down range but, they are more of a walking gun anyways............as is the .221 Fireball............as is the .222........so whats the point.

I think you need to compare them as walking varmint guns. Your sling, a knee, fence post, prone off a sack, waist pack, off hand, shooting sticks or simular non gun mounted portable support. How far are you going to shoot that way? If it's mostly for Coyotes a .222 may be better. If it's for Fox,Woodchucks and smaller seems to me a 22 Hornet should be fine.

To me the .221 FB and the .222 are the same thing. I think the FB was just shortened a whisker for pistols if memory serves me. You can say the same thing I read here in regards to the .221 FB & .222 that I see wrote with the .221FB and the Hornet........the .222 has a little more snot than the .221 FB Thats great if your hunting coyotes all the time with it. But something like a woodchuck or Red Fox at 150 yards off your shooting sticks, a fence post, hay bail or a Y notch in a Apple tree won't care if the bullet came out of a 22Hornet, 22 K Hornet, 221 FB or a 222..........it will be dead just the same............and how far out are you going to shoot accurately from those positions>?

I find the .221 FB from a rifle is hardly any louder then the 22 Hornet for what its worth. The brass cost much more and for the non reloaders the 22 Hornet has a bunch of value ammo out there that compares in cost to the cheap .223 ammo. Not sure about heating up etc........I just know that my Hornets........don't .......heat up much and that I .......don't have to clean them much for accuracy........and they......don't ever copper foul or anything and the barrel would take honest work to shoot out..........and they are very cheap to reload...........fun to shoot...........and kill Woodchucks better than they have a right to as a whole.................my .2 cents though I really do like all three........just don't need all three.

I went with the 221 over the Hornet so I would have more fun with my 204. At the time I was limited to 135yds with the 17HMR. Anything under 250yds with the 204 just has no zest for me. It's simply point & click. So I went with the 221. It takes care of the 135- 250yd shots. Then I drag the ol OT4 out & let Diane clock em with that.

To date my longest lasered FireBall shot is 232yds. But from the results of that ONE groundhog I would not hesitate to shoot it out to 250yds. I also should mention I like the heavier for caliber bullets. I shoot 39gr BK's out of the 204 & the 50gr BK's out of the FireBall. Most folks use the 40's in their FB's but I went with the highest BC I could get. I like to try & maximize each rifle I own in that regard. HTH

I use 50s in the Fireball, too. It's simpler for me to keep just 50s around, since that's what I use in the .223s. I just buy one type bullet for both chamberings. I've shot PDs out to 300 yards with the Fireball, you just have to add a little UP to the sight picture.

All in all, it doesn't really matter too much, they are all fun to shoot, even the old archaic stuff is a hoot. I like them all..................

232 on a Chuck is a pop with that lil caliber Glen.........nice job.

Highest BC/Maximize - The Hornet with a 40 gr Blitzking and case full of Lil Gun is kind of max'ed/modern day for distance if one wants such. I like it because of less drift at all ranges.

Hullo Bill!
Glad to see you Hornetizing again. ~AMMOe

I did a little checking on the Sierra site. The 50gr BK's running 3,000fps + have a BC of .248 & when running between 2750-3000fps which is probably the realistic velocity of the FireBall it drops to .243. The 40gr BK's running 3000fps+ are .196. Between 2750 & 3000fps is probably the realistic velocity of the Hornet in most applications so the BC now drops down to .182. Still not too bad for the lil ol Hornet & someday I just might have one for the 135- 200yd shots.

Not sure you could get a 50 grain bullet up to 3000 fps in a Hornet? Even if you could, from what I understand most of them won't stabilize a 50 very well. I've never been tempted to try it. The 40g Sierra Hornet Bullets are my friend. I've never chronoed them, but I'm sure they are a goodly bit under 3000fps. I'd guess maybe 2800? I get a bit over 3000 with the 35 V-Max.

I have never tried the BK's in mine. Of the three bullets I used last year, the 40g V-Max seemed to be the best for stretching the Hornets range just a bit further than the SHB. Loading the V-Max from a magazine can be done but the bullet needs to be seated very deep in my CZ, the SHB does not and seemed to by outshined by the v-max by only a few yards. Plus the SHB is CHEAPER

Well, I have no experieence with the Hornet, but I can say the Fireball is a great caliber. I have shot it on paper to 300, soon to be further. It has such little recoil it is amazing, and the trajectory is very user friendly out to 300. My furthest groundhog with it was 119 yards, with a load of a 50 SBK, and RL7: I stole Glen's load data and have been really pleased. It produced a 2" entry and made a mess on the inside with no exit. I guess it hit bone and fragged backwards, it was odd to see the entrance hole that big IMO, but it did a very nice job on the inside.

I'm sure the Hornet is great, but I sure love my fireball and would suggest one to anybody.

I edited the above post. I meant the FireBall at 3000fps.

I have the Hornet in a Savage model 40, I love it. I have a real hankering for a Fireball, the name alone does it for me. I load 35gr V max in my Hornet over 13gr L'ill gun. My chrono refuses to register it, no idea why? All my other rifles, Xbow, bow, ML work. I do know that my handloads in the Hornet make a louder noise than any factory ammo, they group just fine. I am guessing at around 3000fps but I am at a loss as to why the chrono cannot see them.

Hi Jerry

Kind of fun shoting paper, etc. at 300 with those lil calibers isn't it?


Hi AMMOe - I still have more fishing comming up this spring. I hope to lay off the local walk to, spring woodchucks this year and leave them be till after the breeding, young are out on there own. I will drive off some where for a little spring Chucks.

Hey Bill! Haven't talked been on and seen ya in a while! How ya been? Yes, it is a ton of fun at the longer ranges. I've just picked up another sling for my old Winchester and have been prone shooting with the iron sights and .22lr at 200. Talk about tough shots! People may wonder why at those ranges, but it sure teaches me a lot about wind!

Sorry for the hijack!

cough...cough...fireball...cough

Responding to Juliang's V-max chrony experience, I had a similar problem with certain bullets several years ago. Turned out to involve confusing the chrony with bright light reflected from the bullet's surface as it zips by. Try moderately shading the chrony, making sure direct sunlight can't hit the bullet before it has left the second chrony sensor. Also or instead, try blackening the bullet with soot. May not work, but a good excuse to burn more powder.

A guy was talking about chronographing his .14-221 on Saubier.com a couple years ago. He said he didn't get consistent readings until he blackened the little bullets with a Sharpie. I don't remember the chronograph model but it sounds like a good idea.

Follow up on the Fireball/Hornet quandry:
Picked up a CZ 527 in .221 Fireball @ Budsgunshop in Paris, KY for the lowest price I've seen (recently) for that rifle. Seemed like a very decent dealer; the salesman even went out of his way to get the CZ distributor's assurance that they had spare magazines (88) in the country.
Haven't shot it yet. The plan is to put a Calhoon modified bolt handle and his lower rings to get the scope lower. Am a little concerned about the 3-shot test-group paper target that came with it: 1.4" group (two shots were 1/2" apart.) Would think this rifle would shoot better out of the box, even with factory (Rem.) ammo, but don't know how many meters this was shot from, how warm the barrel got, or what sights/scope the factory testing dude was using. He could have been one of Akroyd and Martin's "Wild and Crazy Guys" (or were they Hungarian?)
Thanks again for the info!

Congratulations on the find!! Can't wait to see it!! Clean her up good & when you go to the range use the set trigger.

ahh those test targets don't mean anything. Don't worry about it.

As far as the rings...didn't it come with rings? I understand possibly getting the scope lower, but if it came with rings (as it should have) you might want to give them a chance before forking over a bunch of cash. I'm satisfied with the factory CZ rings anyway.

My Hornet was tested at 100M. I'd imagine your 221 would be same-same. A CZ 527 American Hornet sitting on my dealers' shelf is now $699. That is $200 more then they were two and a half years ago when I got mine. I bought a couple of extra magazines but end up feeding them single shot at prairiedogs unless the pups are making shooting fast and furious. In any event, they are built to last a pair of lifetimes! ~AMMOe

With the high dollar factory Remington ammo, my rifle shot under .6" straight out of the box, I just cleaned it and mounted the scope, and took it to the range. Since then, the only other bullets I've tried that HAVEN'T shot at least that well, were some Midway Dogtown 50s that won't shoot in my other rifles, either, and some Calhoon 37s, which need some more tweaking. 50 SPSX, 50 Blitzes, 50VMaxes,40 VMaxes and 50 BlitzKings will all shoot under a half inch with Reloader Seven powder. Lil Gun shoots great, but pierces primers too much to make me happy (large firing pin hole) so I quit using that powder. Using Fed. 205M primers the rifle shoots better than with Rem. 7 1/2s, but the harder cup of the 7.5s have made them the standard for my rifle.

I took it to the PD patches and had a ball with it, too.

Try the 42gr. Calhoon bullets they sure shoot well in my Fireball.