Took the Jeep out for a drive this afternoon to enjoy my day off and found the PD's out and cavorting in the gumbo. I snatched my Ruger 77/22 out from under the back seat and topped off with sub-sonics before setting up a lawn chair and a rest and waiting out the sod rats. I got five of them out to 100 yards (+/-) and had no run offs. PMI is the only other guy I hunt with who will shoot dogs with subs, and he has commented that if you are patient and can shoot straight, subs will do a better job than a lot of high velocity ammos. I must agree. I used Aguila H.P. (same as PMC Moderator) and enjoyed the healthy "thwok!" on impact... much more than the dogs did, for sure. ~AMMOe

I have to agree also. I've only shot a few PD's with subs, but they're my choice for tree squirrels most of the time. You really should try the Eley subs. I've compared them with a few other subs and I keep going back to them, mainly because they expand very well. RWS would be my second choice. I've found CCI subs to pass through most of the time without the terminal performance I expect and they're louder, spooks the rest of the colony. 100 yards with a sub is a long poke. Keep up the good work.

P.S. The new CCI 40 grain segmented subsonic shoots pretty good in my old T-Bolt. I haven't tried them on any squirrels yet.

I hunted small game across the oven mitt of Scotland (Inverness and north) using subs. When I questioned the ability of subs to take some of the large hares they have, at 100 yards, the owner of the rifle I was using just said "See for yourself". I was amazed that the Eley subs just floored them with a solid hit. The experience sold me on subs in general. I like the Eleys but shoot the Aguilas. They are about equal in accuracy and kill the local critters well. I did some expansion tests with subs. The Aguila built PMC Moderator is below. This is a 5 pound block of clay at 25 yards. Bullet entrance is on the left. ~AMMOe

all this talk about subs make me interested...subs are supposed to be a quieter round, am i right? and what makes them better than standard rounds at the extended distances? there is nothing like it to me, to hear the rifle crack, a second later have the can fall over at 70+ yards with the .22 it's a real blast so i'd like to learn more. thanks in advance!

I can't say that subs kill better across the board. If you compare them to Velocitors or something along those lines the Velocitors certainly have more energy. Bullet design has a lot to do with wether or not the sub works well. I like them because they're quiet and usually more accurate than HV stuff. A 50 yard shot here in the woods is a long shot in the fall, too much foliage to shoot much further than that anyway. I can't honestly say how they perform on game beyond that. I have compared them with some other HV rounds though, and inside 50 yards, in some cases, the Eley Subs are better killers than some of the faster rounds, again I think it's due to softer lead and/or better bullet design.

I think the key to subs is that they give up all their energy in the target because, as I have found in my tests, most quality sub HP's have a true hollow point; one that runs 2/3 the length of the bullet. Not just a dimple in the nose.In most, like the Eley, the nose section is longer to accommodate it. I also can't say they kill better than anything else but they are engineered for hunting: not to go fast and look cool. I have shown doubters of subs performance how they work on rabbits and they are amazed. A thud of bullet impact, a small tuft of fur flies, and the rabbit keels over without a twitch.

I agree about Velocitors, etc. Very powerful and decisive on game. When I was field testing Interceptor ammo for Aguila I was getting unbelievable kills. (40 grain, 1490 fps) Speed aside, I think you/we are dead-on about the bullet. Some years back I had my engineer friend at Industrias Tecnos in Mexico make for me some .22 ammo to my specifications. It had the 38 grain sub-sonic bullet, rolled in the coppery lube and loaded to 1300 fps. They ammo arrived with only a six ft/sec standard deviation and would shoot a quarter inch from my Brno at 40M. Kills made with that round were spectacular. Cottontails' insides were turned to soup and seldom an exit wound. Entrance wounds were often horrific, depending on the angle of the hit. I really tried to get them to produce this as a premium hunting round but there was no interest. The stuff is almost too good to shoot! I still have half a brick left and I think PMI still has some I gave him. The performance was all in the bullet, I'm certain.~AMMOe

AMMOe,

I still have the better part of a brick left. IIRC, they didn't go into production due to the liability of some knuckle head trying to run it through a semi auto. In a bolt gun however, it was completely safe, and as AMMOe states...devastating.

I know a guy who had a suburban coyote problem and shot one at 40 yards (in his back yard) with a Remington .22 subsonic broadside. The coyote ran a bit and dropped dead. It surprised the heck out of him.

That's a shame. I've not been able to light on a high speed round that "consistantly" satisfies my accuracy appetite since Eley White Rabbit was discontinued. I was very dissapointed when that ammo was dropped. I'd be willing to pay extra for a high quality and devistating .22LR round. But, the 17M2 build is close to completion, hopfully it will fill that void for me.

Has anyone tried the 18 twist GM barrels with Velocitors, Stingers, etc? I'd considered going that route instead of the M2 build. Since I've been less than pleased with most 22HV ammo in the past, I couldn't talk myself into going there. Yet....I may still.

BTW, that 5lb clay block is impressive!!

I have. My Ruger 10/22 trinket gun (has all the gadgety stuff on it and is tucked into a thumbhole stock...) has a 1-18" twist GM barrel. It was a disappointment with Stingers but they are a disappointing round, anyhow. Velocitors were just OK. On the other hand, it shot everything else really well! Including subs with one exception: The Aguila 60 grain SSS were scattered and yawing badly at 50M. Subs will cut a ragged hole for 10 shots, as will the standard Aguila HV 40 and 38 grain stuff @ 1250 fps.

PMI: Glad you're saving a few boxes. Good stuff.~AMMOe

That's good to hear. I'm suprised it shoots standard weight subs well. I may get one of those 18 twist barrels eventually.

I won't give mine up...Even if PMI asks for it back very politely.
Of course, if he looks down at me and demands it, well..... ~AMMOe

wow, lots of information to take in as always guys. i've shot a ton of the bargain cheap stuff with a little experimentation with CCI. i've tried the velocitors with disappointing results, in terms of accuracy. i'd bet if i could hit what i'm aiming at, those things would be impressive. My little Marlin throws some cheap stuff in less than one inch groups at 50 yards, and that's enough for me to knock over a rabbit. i'm experimenting with a little bit of longer shots now, mostly on cans and stuff of that nature. Good info once again!

yup, that's how I was. Somehow (I blame AMMOe and Mag-Check) I got the rimfire bug a while back. Haven't been the same since.

Maybe this will help you along. These are all ten shot groups fired at 50M with each target representing a different brand of ammo. No Eley, No high dollar match ammo.~AMMOe

I have done alot of tree squirrel hunting with subsonics and I found that they kill faster then a high speed round. I shoot either a eleys or aguila. I would have to say the one best shot that come to mind was a squirrel I shot in the neck at 50yds and had the bullet do a 90 degree turn and sew down his back and stop at the base of his tail in a perfect mushroom, this is the only bullet I"ve have ever seen "walk", I have been trying to get a 1-9 twist barrel for the aguila 60gr. SSS but there are not to many on the market for a 77/22, had a gunsmith tell me he could make me one but thats been six months ago so I order one from lilja and it should be in in a few weeks. I have read that the 1-9 twist is the best for all subsonic so I plan to try some eleys in it too. the only long range shooting I have done with subs was playing around and shooting at 55gl. barrel at 200 yards (used a range finder later) the bullet took about 3 sec. to get there and went though one side and dented the other side.

I have done alot of tree squirrel hunting with subsonics and I found that they kill faster then a high speed round. I shoot either a eleys or aguila. I would have to say the one shot that come to mind was a squirrel I shot in the neck at 50yds and had the bullet do a 90 degree turn and sew down his back and stop at the base of his tail in a perfect mushroom, this is the only bullet I"ve have ever seen "walk", I have been trying to get a 1-9 twist barrel for the aguila 60gr. SSS but there are not to many on the market for a 77/22, had a gunsmith tell me he could make me one but thats been six months ago so I order one from lilja and it should be in in a few weeks. I have read that the 1-9 twist is the best for all subsonic so I plan to try some eleys in it too. the only long range shooting I have done with subs was playing around and shooting at 55gl. barrel at 200 yards (used a range finder later) the bullet took about 3 sec. to get there and went though one side and dented the other side.

YB,

If you can find a 10/22 1-9 twist barrel, your 'smith should be able to set the shoulder back to give it the longer shank needed by the 77/22. Just a though...

I think I have one AMMOe did that to, but it was a 1-20" twist for shorts...

Sounds like a good time. I think I still have some of the PMC Moderator left always did shoot really good out of my CZ but the Power Points shot just as good for me I know I can always get them (I hope).
But till school is done and I get back to work I'm not doing much shooting. so shot some for me as I sit learning Mastercam and G&M coding.

WBH

It seems the subs will work on bigger dogs too! I shot this one this evening with an Eley at about 30 yards with the 77/22. He made it about another 40 yards and folded in a creek. It's the only coyote I've ever shot with a .22LR that I can recall. Not that I endorse hunting coyotes with a .22, but hey, there it is.

I have shot feral dogs with 22LR but never with subs! Good job, Red.~AMMOe

Purdy cool Red!!

Marine,
I look into geting a 10/22 barrel made into a 77/22 but a 10/22 barrel was going to cost me about $160. then to have the shank worked on is another $100. and then the 10/22 barrel is 16.5" so I have to be careful not to get into a small rifle ($200 tax) so I ordered a lilja for $355. and got it made to my spec's, varmint contor 20" and, they make match grade hand lapped barrels so thats a plus too.

Red thats a nice coyote, I have got a few with a .22 but not with subs, good work

.22LR wouldn't be my choice of calibers for coyote. At close range a 22WMR if that's all I had, but a .223 is my preferred round, or a 12GA if up close and personal. Nice shot though.

I agree.

The 22LR sub is berry berry quiet though